The Unknownplayer Comic attack on Saint P

Sol Invictus · Post by **Sol Invictus** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:47 pm

The following is an e-mail composed by yours truly incited by this comic - http://www.unknownplayer.com/comic/ - which is obviously an attack on Saint Proverbius' reply towards J.E. Sawyer. Read it first, then read this.

I have a few comments pertaining to your latest comic - the one about J.E. Sawyer and the Vault Boy who was so obviously Saint Proverbius.

You do not seem to fully grasp the point of view professed Saint Proverbius.

First of all, it's not a matter of whether real time games are 'good' or whether turn based games are 'better?. I enjoy both types of games equally so I do believe that my opinion in this matter holds a certain merit towards a fair assessment of both points of view within this argument.

What matters is, rather, the implementation of a real time system into a role-playing game with an inherently turn-based system such as SPECIAL or D20. Converting an inherently turn-based system into a real-time environment indubitably disrupts the rules and is in other words, the equivalent of throwing sh*t into a fan and expecting a cake to come out in return. Therefore, games produced through this method are subsequently the poor bastard children of a failed marriage between turn-based and real-time. Case in point: Arcanum. Remember the combat?

If we follow your fruit analogy, we could say it is similar to fertilizing your oranges with fertilizer meant for pears in a climate, soil and overall condition meant for the growing of pears and not oranges! Simply put, it doesn?t work out correctly. When you have oranges, which are inherently oranges, but grown as pears and are susequently expected to be eaten as either oranges or pears, it will cause people to vomit because they just don?t know what to expect, as it?s neither truly an orange, nor is it a pear. It?s a pear in essence (i.e. Baldur?s Gate) but because it tastes nothing like one, the farmer insists that it looks and tastes like a pear ? but alas, it isn?t. The people would rather eat real pears than oranges which ?resemble? pears.

Most people (Including you, apparently) simply fail to comprehend that you can't take a turn based game, bastardize it into a real-time game and expect anyone to enjoy it as either a real time game or a turn based game because it is neither ? not both. A real time game is built upon a real time foundation with the intention of being a real time game. The system just works better. That's precisely why CounterStrike would fail as a turn based game, and why Neverwinter Nights failed as a real-time game.

p.s. why doesn?t your email fucking work?

bloodbathmaster2 · Post by **bloodbathmaster2** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:16 pm

besides the fact that you got pears and oranges mixed up (oranges are supposed to be TB :P), I agree. To take it a point further, I would argue that we're not complaining that adding pears to the market is such a bad thing, we just greatly miss the quality of oranges Pop Cain offered.

Sol Invictus · Post by **Sol Invictus** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:18 pm

Damn straight.

bloodbathmaster2 · Post by **bloodbathmaster2** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:33 pm

Neat sig, btw.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:43 pm

Well that's a very, very lame comic, not to mention a stupid, off-topic analogy. Talk about a straw man argument.

LlamaGod · Post by **LlamaGod** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:45 pm

populer=beter u nubs

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:59 pm

Kinda funny. That's all I have to say about it

First Force · Post by **First Force** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:19 pm

i agree with max here

satanisgreat · Post by **satanisgreat** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:07 am

I thought it was pretty funny myself. The thing is that that is exactly how it happened in the forum. It was basically just an illustrated version of J.E.'s post. Nothing more, no editorial opinion from the artist, really.

Just out of curiostity, is that what Sawyer actually looks like.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:22 am

He has bulky glasses and freckles.

Grey Fil · Post by **Grey Fil** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:54 am

He doesnt have glasses and freckles, I have (except for the freckles).

I agree that it will be very difficult (or maybe impossible) to make both gameplay systems good at the same time and RPGÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s are traditionally and in terms of eficiency better if turn based. Real time is really for FPS and some other genres. At the same time I defend JEÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s position (as in the NMAÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s unoficial FAQ) that since it MUST have real time because of divine intervention, they are developing the best possible turn based with real time as an option. If they can make a reasonably good TB or not is a completly different question. Only time can tell.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:26 am

Yo Sawyer ditch them both and give us BULLET TIME.

Briosafreak · Post by **Briosafreak** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:40 pm

satanisgreat wrote:I thought it was pretty funny myself. The thing is that that is exactly how it happened in the forum. It was basically just an illustrated version of J.E.'s post. Nothing more, no editorial opinion from the artist, really.

Just out of curiostity, is that what Sawyer actually looks like.

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LlamaGod · Post by **LlamaGod** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:28 pm

omg hot

Tim Cain could beat him up easy.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:03 pm

That's the asshole working on Fallout 3 huh? Interesting.

Forty-six & Two · Post by **Forty-six & Two** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:56 pm

This comic is biased and shit for portraying the argument between Saint and JE. BUT... youre saying is segregation is a good thing? That we cant mix different genres and styles? Well FUCK if everyone did that itd be a pretty damn boring world and if I recall correctly the concept of Fallout is a pretty mixed package, post apoc, 50s and mixed with RPG isnt really anything any other game than Wasteland did before. I think FOT was good, it could have been great if they had worked on it, but I dont think the combat and the gameplay are bad, only the detail work.

That being said I do think that Fallout 3 should be TB, but I dont think it will be a worse game because RT is implemented as well. I just think we have to accept it and be happy a FOT 3 is being made, we just have to hope its well done story wise and FAllout credible.

We ALL know that money is important. So important that you have to have mass appeal to earn alot of it. Interplay is fucked already, theyd be stupid if they didnt do everything they could to earn money. Its like having a job you know, making a living... you can argument that its the same thing as art, music and writing and that the game/song/book/artwork should be the most important thing, but we all know that wont always make you a living.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:14 pm

I don't see how Saint's is tied to this... This disscussion between The pear salesman and the Falloutboy is simply a post JE made in the iply forums?

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:24 pm

Y'know, I'd say that over the course of the past 25 years the term "game designer" has come to describe quite a different group of people. Of the pictures I've seen lately I really have to say that there isn't a Gary Gygax, Mike Carr, or Ed Greenwood among them...

(I have to say that I grok BIS' dress code/grooming standards, though.

)

OTB

LlamaGod · Post by **LlamaGod** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:37 pm

Dan wrote:I don't see how Saint's is tied to this... This disscussion between The pear salesman and the Falloutboy is simply a post JE made in the iply forums?

Methinks Saint is the Vaultboy.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:58 pm

Forty-six & Two wrote:Its like having a job you know, making a living... you can argument that its the same thing as art, music and writing and that the game/song/book/artwork should be the most important thing, but we all know that wont always make you a living.

Following that logic, that Spiderweb software dude who makes those ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¼ber-shitty boring turd-based role-playing pieces of shit he calls "games" (Avernums, Geneforces, Exiles) should have starved by now maybe perhaps... but I doubt the decision was Sawyer's anyway. But if it was then YOU'RE A HOMO JE

The comic was cool though, if a bit biased

Dan`` wrote:I don't see how Saint's is tied to this... This disscussion between The pear salesman and the Falloutboy is simply a post JE made in the iply forums?

He talks to himself?