Liberalism in America

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:13 pm

Ok well I am doing a speech for english class, and I need some feedback on what you people think. But please, don't go off topic. Let's stay strictly on topic on this one. Arguments are fine, just don't go off topic. I want your views and ideas on what you think, whether you're American or not, I want to know what you have to say. Now there are many forms of liberalism, so you can cover as many as you want, but once again, let's try and stay on topic. Thanks.

Here are my political views. First of all, there is a lot of liberalism in the United States. Too many gun-control laws coming into question, banning religion practices in schools and other public places, and the easy treatment of criminals due to radical human rights groups. Our people have even gone as far as saying that some dogs, since they are domesticated, should be considered citizens. Hah! Well those animal activists can take it too far indeed. But it also gives us more civil liberties as well. So it goes both ways. Well your feedback and replies are welcome, just don't flame anyone and stay on topic. Thanks.

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:56 pm

It depends on your viewpint. I think that there are a lot of liberla activists playing the system but OTOH there are a lot of crazy conservative activists plying the system too. The Republicans are at a strongpoint now considering that Arnold got where he is and Bush still remains strong. I would almost tend to think liberal politics isn't quite as domineering as conservative viewpoints in the current climate.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:24 pm

I think the results of this poll are going to be overwhelming pro-liberalism, but that's really due to America's politics compared to the rest of the world. America is probably one of the most conservative nations in the western world. I recall a liberal college professor remarking after a trip to Europe, "I can't believe someone like Bush ran as a moderate." As far as that goes, I don't give a damn. It's not America that's conservative, it's the rest of the western world that's too liberal.

Frankly, we are getting worse. We have the most heavily armed civilian population in the world, but there are over 20,000 gun laws at various levels of government currently on the books in this country, some of them contradictory. We have courts that liberally apply first and second amendment rights as far as porn and political satire is concerned, but these same courts completely stifle any mention of religion. Guess what, folks, 'separation of church and state' is nowhere in the constitution. In order to preserve 'equality', we find ourselves hoisted by our own petards. Our beefed up airport security, which according to reports still fails tests miserably, is more likely to search a white man than an Arab, even though the current terrorist threat seems to be coming primarily from Arabs.

It's insanity. Liberals want to make America a European-style socialist democracy, void of morals, religion and conservative values. They would impose complex socialist programs that attempt to solve social problems by addressing symptoms, and even then only if it benefits minorities or oppressed groups. Even the Republican party is moving in that direction; JimmyJay brought up Dubya as a sign of conservative strength in America, but this guy spends more than Clinton. He expands social programs more than Clinton. He hires more government workers than Clinton. If this guy's conservative, I must be the fucking lunatic fringe, because I believe in crazy things like adhering to the Constitution as it's written, and not spending more money than you take in.

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:25 pm

I think you're mixed up as far as what's liberal and what's not, soldier. Sure liberals may tout some of the things you mentioned, but there are a few conservative ideas there. Liberalism is all about changing things for the better, and conservatism is all about keeping things the same as they always have been "because it worked then it'll work now". I'm way liberal because I think the conservative viewpoint is retarded, personally.
I'll go through your views and give you mine on the subjects :

Gun control. I don't know a lot about this, but it makes more sense to me to allow everyone to have guns, to balance it out, than to keep them out of the hands of people who could be using them to defend themselves. But I donno, whatever. Not a big issue for me.

Banning religious practices per se isn't cool, in that people should be able to practice whatever they want for themselves, but they SHOULD NOT be able to tell any other person what to do as far as religion goes. Banning religion in school = banning the school from mandating that all children pray before eating. Makes perfect sense, because not all children pray in their religion (or lack thereof) and kids were getting shunned because of their non participation. I know all this stuff, it happened in my state and is kinda an important issue to me, being relatively atheist.

The easy treatment of criminals I'm all for. There's the standard argument, "What if they get it wrong and kill someone who didn't do anything?" Ok that's fine, but then there's my viewpoint. I'm I guess what you'd call a Sophist, I don't do the whole objective morality thing, so as far as I'm concerned, forcing anyone else into your views of right and wrong is bad? People should be free to do what they want, and laws make that not true. Punishing people as little as possible is what I'm all about.

Want to explain to me exactly WHY animals can't be considered citezens? I find this insulting. You just try and tell me that animals aren't emotional, thinking beings. Because they can't speak english? Right, foreign people don't speak english. We CAN communicate with them, dogs tell us quite clearly when they want to eat, when they want to go out, etc. Monkeys can even understand human speech and use sign language. Now let's see, you have someone in a coma, who can do none of those things, and this person is a citezen? What about handicapped people? Are animals any different? "But they're animals, not people, lawl, don't be stupid" is a retarded argument, we're animals too.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:27 pm

SuperH, you're confusing dictionary definitions with political reality. Any more, terms like liberal or conservative are applied to leftists and rightist respectively. Both of these sides want change, but just in different directions.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:30 pm

Doyle wrote:Our beefed up airport security, which according to reports still fails tests miserably, is more likely to search a white man than an Arab, even though the current terrorist threat seems to be coming primarily from Arabs.

IIRC, all of our planes that were hijacked were hijacked by Arabs. Fuck that, it's racism, since obviously an old black lady is just as likely to crash a plane into a skyscraper...

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:43 pm

too many doulbe-standards and stuff, laws should protect your average citizen, not restrict him from doing stuff he feels?

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:58 pm

How can an animal become a citizen, if we do this, then our world is truly ending. They aren't human beings, they are our companions. If you grant a dog citizenship, then one day, someone is going to say that we should let them vote. It's ridiculous. I respect all forms of life, except viruses, parasites, and those damn, pesky, mosquitos and flies. But granting them a citizenship is just plain stupid. Citizenship is belonging to a certain government. They don't own you, but they have the responsibility to protect you. So if another nation decides to kill a thousand "American" dogs, do we go to war with them. There is a fine line between humans and animals. As for gun-control, I'm against it in a form. Guns like assault rifles should definitely be banned or heavily taxed, but not small arms. Remember the criminals aren't going to give a damn about gun-control laws. They are not all of the sudden give up guns if the government tells them too. And they will find a way to steal the weapons or buy from foreigners or the black market. As for criminals, they are treated to easily, if someone murdered your family member, wouldn't you want revenge. They are given good cells, some complaing because they don't have a big screen t.v. Its not jail anymore, its just a place where the bad people go to spend time for thier crimes. As for racial profiling, yes its totally wrong, but do you have a better way. Terrorists hide amongst our population, they aren't going to come out and say "I'm here! Come and get me!." Its not like we are putting them in concentration camps, we just ask them a few questions and then if they are innocent, then we let them go. But these are good feedback people. Thanks a bunch. Please continue and I will try and respond every now and then.

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:14 pm

everyone is so spastic about racial profiling. the government can profile anyone based on any reason they want and you cant stop them. if the terrorist threat is arabs then they should take every arab they see and profile them so another terrorist act doesnt occur. i dont care if they do it with anyone whos ever immigrated because they should. all immigrants should be profiled on entry then if they step out of line they are kicked back out to their shithole of a country.

i could care less how many people think they are being repressed, because honestly they should do it to everyone who ever commits a crime, yes even minor crimes, then if they commit a crime again they should be shot. people who kill massive amounts of people should be shot on site in a gallery like a hanging.

oh yah, anyone caught with drugs against the law should be lined up and shot nazi style in a park specifically designed for the occasion.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:31 pm

When you're republican, everyones too liberal.

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:28 pm

Technicly being a liberal is better, in a classical sense, nowadays liberal is really used to describe "progressives" or filthy communist fuck-sticks, that's why I'm a Libertarian.

-=Felix=- · Post by **-=Felix=-** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:19 am

You know what's dragging America down? The fucking media.

Fox News
CNN
MSNBC
etc, etc.

They're a bunch of self-aggrandizing twits who like to enforce their views on the masses.

The masses take it in, because the channel is labeled 'news'.

Hell, tell me shit I need to know, I can give a fuck less about arnold in cali when there's fucking drugbusts going down in the school my lil' iddy bitty brother goes to.

Hell, they should name 'em like they are.

Mini-Fuhrer Network
Christian Coalition Broadcasting Network
I love Michael Moore
etc, etc.

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:21 am

Well CNN's REAL name is the Communist News Network.

Ruben Rooben Reuben · Post by **Ruben Rooben Reuben** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:52 am

The media is biased either way, sure. But Liberals have an overwhelming majority of the broadcast air time, screen time, face time, and hammer time.

It's just that Liberals are better at utilizing the media than are Conservatives. Liberals are in a better position to badmouth FOX News because Liberals are well-versed enough to be coy about the matter.

Same goes for most of education. If most of your teachers' unions get support from a Democrat/Lib group, it don't take no jeenie-yuss to figure out what kind of indoctrinating they'll be performing.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:27 am

Great post SuperH.

I'm the most liberal person I know, yet the concept of dog-citizens made me laugh out loud. That sounds like something cooked up by PETA or some other such group, or maybe it's completely fabricated. Who can take it seriously?

Jimmyjay86 wrote:The Republicans are at a strongpoint now considering that Arnold got where he is and Bush still remains strong. I would almost tend to think liberal politics isn't quite as domineering as conservative viewpoints in the current climate.

First of all, who can call Arnold a true republican? If you do some research on his views, you will find that many of them seem liberal.

And about the current "conservative" period in America, personally I am not too worried about the little fluctuations like this. Look at America 200 years ago... slavery, unequality in every form, the bible being taught in public schools, etc. Yet now, look how far America has progressed. I am hopeful that in the coming 200 years, we can make equal progress, despite periodic "conservative eras".

Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:33 am

From the European perspective, America is too conservative - in the sense of conservative as pro-christian religion, pro-business, pro-established power groups. People are mainly afraid because Bush is, in comparison to all European politicians, a religious fundamentalist and there are other ominous signs as the pushing of creationism in the curricula. We dig the separation of state and church over here, and seeing politicians pray or run around with a bible before going on with the arguably rational business of governing gives us the creeps. It is difficult to explain, but maybe you can boil it down to this position: If you need the help of God (aka circumstance, luck, the ultimate fall guy) you are not fit to rule. Also, (the atheist viewpoint) somebody who spends time praying to an invisible space monster is not fit to rule.

Then, there is the big business angle. Most people I know are very suspicious of big business in America. Everybody knows what Halliburton is these days. I share their belief, that a couple of very rich men tries to control government policy to fill their own pockets in a way unthinkable to the normal human being while busting their worker's pensions, school money, health benefits...The Enron scandal (and the scandals and dirty tricks that followed) did damage the image of corporate America in a way that won't be repaired for years. The whole "They steal the livelihoods of thousands of people and receive a slap on the wrist why arent't those scumbags in jail?" shtick. Not that Europe is immune...we too have managers sinking whole firms and walking off with a nice "Abfindung"...but the numbers we get from America are absurd.

I don't think America needs more gun control. It needs more business control. Putting Kenny Lay in jail would be a signal to the business community and the world in general.

Finally, there is the thing with the Florida vote and the rumbles about the new electronic voting machines. Some fear that if more such incidents occur, democracy in America might not be dead and buried. Not in danger, but gone, gone, gone.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:08 pm

Liberal's were not always bad, the last true great Democrat in my mind was JFK. After that it was sort of down hill.

I'm registered Republican but I don't let that sway my decisions on people. It does however seem that Liberals are the complete opposite of what they are supposed to be and actually seem to support more "big government" to coin a phrase they so often use.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:16 pm

Hammer wrote:It does however seem that Liberals are the complete opposite of what they are supposed to be and actually seem to support more "big government"

I don't think so. In what ways do we support that? And also what other examples do you have, if any, of liberals being the opposite?

Hammer wrote: to coin a phrase they so often use.

Now THAT'S an oxymoron.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:20 pm

For example not to get in to the debate, gun control. They would rather have a national database of every American who owns a firearm so that "big brother" could keep an eye on them. Also it seems that liberals wish to have the federal government step in on a lot of issues that could be solved without them.

"Fuck the people, lets let the Government do it!" I mean shit if you're against big government why insist on them constantly stepping in to take action or moderate the people?

These however, seem to be the views of the "new age" liberals, not the correct ones.

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:28 pm

Well you see, we need the government to take care of us and protect us, but not limit our freedoms. Gun-control is illegal, after all, we have the right to bear arms, but limiting the types of weapons that can be sold and owned would be better. For example, who and why would someone need an assault rifle? A simple glock or beretta would do fine. So would shotguns and hunting rifles I guess.

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