Need SPAS Shotgun info.

[PaladinHeart]

I don't really know that much about the gun, other than its a long barreled powerful military shotgun. For example, what does SPAS mean? Im think AS means Assault System.

Hmm.. there is one in resident evil 2. I could snag that description from somewhere.

Only problem is, I guess these wouldn't have existed in the 50's? Of course, I love the weapon so I'd sooner go for fun over realism than to not have it.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

There's also one in JA2, though I don't think their description was very detailed.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh14-e.htm

Now let's see how long before one of the firearms experts come and correct the details in the link.

[PaladinHeart]

I think they're too busy complaining and/or gossiping in the other forums :)

Besides, I think that's more than enough information for me to go on. Yikes.

Thanks a bunch RFAS (since I tend to spell requiem incorrectly)

"The Sporting (or Special, depending on your source) Purpose Automatic Shotgun is a heavy, complex shotgun that is made up of a lot of pieces when compared to other single barreled shotguns. One of the more powerful shotguns available, requiring some measure of strength when fired."

sounds much better than

"A somewhat heavy, but very powerful shotgun."

[airsoft guy]

A better description would be:

"SPAS-12 Shotgun
A heavy, select-fire combat shotgun, can be used in semi-automatic mode, or as a standard pump action. Expensive and complicated to make giving it a high price. Popular with military forces for its versatility and movie goers for its badass look."

Ta-da, now doesn't that one look much better?

[PaladinHeart]

I like some bits of your description. I'll go over mine and maybe change it a bit later. Make it more comical perhaps. I just have this thing about telling what the abbreviation means on all the weapons.

I just noticed a lot of redundantcies in my own description. I can shorten it later. I didn't go to school for nothing.

[airsoft guy]

Well see here's the thing about needing to be stronger to shoot it than other shotguns. It is a rather heavy shotgun, but that would make it easier to shoot, more weight means that less of the energy would be transfered to the shooter, of course that extra weight also makes it great for beating hippies. 12 gauge is a 12 gauge, unless you plan on using different types of shells, that might give the gun a different feel to it. Does the editor allow for that though? Like affecting the strength of the shooter? Say they've got a strength of 6, the only shotgun load they could use would be like a light self defense round, but if they try and use full on hunting loads it pops the minimum strength for the gun to 7.

It's really not important that people know what the SPAS means, or the AR, or AK or whatever acronyms there are in a gun. Just takes up time.

[PaladinHeart]

I could give the gun totally different ammo, but im pretty sure that the SPAS takes any 12 gage ammo?

In comparison to a normal shotgun's requirement of 4 strength though, how much would the SPAS require? I remember in RE2, using it would give a little kickback. Of course that was with the modification attached. Im not sure if it had as much without it. I always had a great time running around that platform, blasting William with the shotgun, running around some more..

Don't worry about it taking more time. It gives me something to do when im not in the mood to map. If im concerned about anything, its that im making too many different weapons and/or ammunition. Can you have too many different weapons and ammunition in a game?

You know what? I think I'll make it a big gun. It'd be cool to run into a mutie wielding a SPAS

Or should I say, "run from" instead of "run into"?

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Don't worry about it taking more time. It gives me something to do when im not in the mood to map.

I might be wrong but I read airsoft guy's post as it taking more time for the player, to read the description.

If im concerned about anything, its that im making too many different weapons and/or ammunition. Can you have too many different weapons and ammunition in a game?

Yes, just look at FOT unmodified, most of the weapons are useless by the time you get them. Although that's mostly down to poor design, having too many weapons and ammo just makes it harder to properly plan your progression.

[PaladinHeart]

Its funny you should mention that, as some of the weapons I made kinda become useless right after you get them. Of course that doesn't mean the enemy isn't going to still be using them! That's the main reason for a lot of the weapons im making. I want to have a big variety of enemies, so I think a big variety of weapons is in order. I may even make a guy that can do considerable damage with a zip gun (bonus damage), just to irritate the heck out of the player when they go to loot him :)

You can still pick them up and sell em. I think of it as giving the player money or loot that they have the option of using if needed.

Of course, its not useless if you wish to conserve ammunition. I've tried to make all the weapons useful in their own way. One might do more damage, but takes more ammunition. The range might also be lower than another weapon. Or maybe the ammunition is cheaper for that little dinky pistol? Or maybe you should just sell them all for a better weapon? Or even more ammo or meds.

There won't be a place you can instantly trade all your stuff for cash (not right away at least), so you'll have to trade it for other useful supplies if you don't want to lug it around. I also managed to make the value of money vague and unclear, so the player won't care as much when they spend it.

I guess I just like giving a lot of choices to the player. And/or confusing them. I'd rather perplex the player about what to use rather than whether they should save their money for later or not. I hated that about the other Fallout games. You horde money the whole game for that singular planned purpose (power armor in FOT or implants in FO1 & 2).

As for the descriptions, they don't have to read them. I don't think I ever did unless I got bored or wanted to take a time out. If I can help it, my RPG is going to be long and drawn out, so people with a quickie in mind might not like it? Or maybe they'll want to play it a little at a time?

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I find the tons of weapons in FOT annoying, same with JA2. I've seen several posts around, here and at Interplay about realistic disposition of weaponry, which is something I'd like to see.

How most pre-war weapons would be pistols, shotguns and hunting rifles. With sub-machine guns and assault rifles being found rarely, mainly on maps where the enemy occupies former police stations or military bases.

[Sirgalahadwizard]

I'd say minimum strength is kinda ambigious. It takes very little strength to pull the trigger, or to cock the gun. To use it without it hurting you every time is I think the bigger question. Fallout 2 did a much better job of this - FOT just makes it to where you cant use it if you dont have the strength (FO2 only gave you an accuracy penalty).

Most weapons I just omit the minimum strength alltogether - 0. I judge minimum strength based on how much momentum it imparts and how it's designed to be held. The more lightweight the gun using the same ammo, the more kick it has. Heavier means less kick, because the weapon will have more inertia than lighter ones and therefore move back slower.

Big handguns usually get a 4 or 5, and awkward ones get a 6. Nothing in the .223 calibre gets a min strength unless it weighs less than 5 lb (or is a pureblood machinegun). Lasers never have a minimum strength except for the gatling laser (c'mon, they dont have *any* recoil).

I also don't even list a minimum strength for something unless it's at least a 5, because a strength of 5 is average (I deleted the text entry which autmatically listed the min. strength, and included a new one in the item's description).

Basically, I put the min. strength for shotguns at about 5... but since my CAWS is made out of composites and is lightweight, it's a 6. Likewise, a Greener is a 6 also because it's tiny. A SPAS-12 would probably be a 5 in my book, but because of the long barrel i'd give it about a 20% damage bonus (if a normal one does 15-25, a SPAS would do about 20-30).

Oh - also eliminate the cone effect, it's ugly and unrealistic. Just make it shoot the projectileInvisible the grenade launchers use (to give that dramatic pause before impact and make it sound more dangerous), and give it a generic ToHit bonus (+20% i'd say).

Of course, a Spas would take 5AP to shoot just like any other rifle, but the added range and damage bonuses make up for it (and unlike most other shotguns, i'd make it capable of doing Targeted shots too).

[airsoft guy]

Yeah, I didn't like the minimum strength thing either, it was rather odd.

What is this "cone effect?"Is it the spread on the shotgun?

SPeaking of the dpread, can you modify the spread on different shotguns? Like the SPAS for example, or a hunting shotgun, they have a longer barrel resulting in a tighter pattern and longer ranges, while a sawed off shotgun would throw a wall of shot out, but would loserange rather quickly.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

You've got a choice of spread arcs, none, straight, cone, spray, burst and radial. I think OTB probably has the data somewhere of the difference between them.

Here's where I'm going to be stepped on but isn't the Spas-12 basically the real world equivilent of the combat shotgun (from the rpgs) anyway?

[airsoft guy]

Nope, the Combat Shotgun in Fallout was a bullpup shotgun with a stock, which is kind of important with a bullpup shotgun (you know what bullpup is, it's where the magazine is placed behind the trigger). Plus the SPAS is not fully automatic, just semi-automatic, while the Combat Shotgun was full auto, and in Fallout 1 and 2 they tried to make the weapons somewhat realistic, unlike Tactics (the Neostead for example, it may be a combat shotgun, but it ain't fully-automatic, or even semi, she's a pump gun).

[PaladinHeart]

Thanks for the discussion, as it has provided a lot of interesting ideas. I didn't know the Neostead wasn't automatic. Were there any other blatant errors in FOT? I'd like to know in case I want to use those weapons.

The cone area damage of the shotguns tends to greatly multiply the damage, AND it does that same damage to all within that area. Here, i'll mock up a fake formula:

0-2 x 100 + shotgun damage

I know that's not totally accurate, but the pancor isn't a multiplayer favorite for nothing.

I basically made the damage more random, but kept the cone effect. Using the invisible shot with area damage (if you're using area damage?) can set your weapon up for the "hit them from behind a wall" cheat. Which would have been cool had they not let them pass through roofs as well :-/

Of course im not complaining, considering I had to use this tactic on MANY occasions to beat FOT in hardest diff/toughguy mode.

I like the idea, but want my shotguns to be crowd control weapons. Im seriously thinking of taking off aimed shots for shotguns. Im sure you could aim at close range, but further off and I think the pellets would spread too much for effective aiming. Of course then there is the possibility of using a slug (which would be more believeable for an aimed shot), so I don't really know what to do. I'll have to remove aimed though if its to be for crowd control.. can't have the player hitting 10 guys in the eye with one shell now can we? :)

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While I will try to have the disposition of weapons as real as possible (more pistols/shotguns/rifles near beginning, automatics later), I will not sacrifice gameplay at any time for realism. Alternatively, if something just isn't fun, I'll have no qualms about removing it. If it doesn't seem to fit but is otherwise a fun gimmick.. it stays :-)

There will be various factions with automatic weapons though. Everyone who has automatic weapons, or better, will have their obvious sources. Or not so obvious, depending on how well you search the maps.

Most raiders, for example, will either have no weapons, primitive weapons, or single shot firearms. Except for special factions or later enemies that I want to put them on just to make them harder.

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I always figured that if a character would hurt themselves by using a weapon (too much kickback?) then they don't really have the strength to use it. Or wouldn't use it. But maybe you're right? I could just take off the strength requirements. I'll think about it.

Heck, it won't cause any problems. All of the characters will be specialized in a certain weapon type anyway. I can let weight be the only issue (but won't change weight to reflect that, mind you).

I want it to be fun. If strength requirements get in the way of fun, then adios strength requirements. I'd think it kinda silly for someone to be able to carry something, but not use it anyway. The exception would be an outfit that is too small or too big (I changed Charisma to Slimness since it was useless anyway).

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Charisma isn't useless.

[bertgoldstein]

Another big error is that the SAW uses the wrong kind of ammo (should use 5.56). Which is stupid, because unlikes a lot of the guns that say they've been modified because the ammo they use isn't in the game, the right kind of ammo is actually in the game.

I really don't think removing strength requirements would be a good idea, especially on big guns. On some weapons like some of the rifles that have strength 6 I could see lowering them to 4 or 5, but otherwise it'd make strength a pretty useless stat.

Weight never really becomes an issue except towards the end of the mission when you're carring a bunch of stuff back to sell, or if you're using the M2, or flamer where the weapon and ammo weighs a ton. And then you can just have someone else carry your extra ammo like I always did. The other weapons you can still carry the weapon a bunch of ammo, even if you have like small frame.

I actually jacked up the weight and strength requirement on the M2 because you better be wearing power armor or be a supermutant to be walking around shooting it off, plus I always abused too much in the main campaign.

Charisma lets you get the leader perk, which is probally one of the best in the game, and I honestly wouldn't want to take a character that couldn't get it. Less usefully I think it also affects rank somehow.

[PaladinHeart]

Charisma isn't useless.

It is in Fallout Tactics. If im not mistaken, the only point to having higher charisma is to get better barter prices? And maybe for certain perks. But it doesn't play a constant effect in gameplay.

Str - Equipping weapons
Per - long range accuracy
End - Life per level & equip armor
char (slim) - equipping armor
int - skills per level
agi - action points
luc - crit chance, hidden modifiers, and required for many dif perks

I would feel differently if charisma was used to affect conversations, but I don't believe it has any effect at all? But yeah, charisma is very important in Fallout 1 and 2.

I never thought leader was a very good perk. 1 agility and 5 armor? Armor class is near useless (maybe keep you a little out of a sniper's range, but not by much), and 1 agility isn't good unless you have an uneven number on your other squaddies.

At any rate, I mainly just needed two different stats for armor requirements. If someone is big and buff, they can take more hits, but they're less likely to slip into a small stealth outfit.

Its just one of the ways I have of forcing the player to use all their people. I just don't believe in having a useless medic along that can only heal. All the characters are going to be good at certain things, and sometimes they'll wear armor that nobody else can wear to get the job done.

I think I'll stick with the strength system im using. Its nothing spectacular, but if I see any problems in playtesting I'll fix it. I think it makes more sense to require strength for weapons and endurance/slimness for armor. It differentiates the stats and makes them seem more useful.

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Heh, maybe I should also change luck to Dexterity? Hmm.. Well it wouldn't work in all cases.

At least Spesial still sounds similar to special.. heh

[M92FS]

Description : The SPAS-12 was 1 of the 1st shotguns designed from the outset for military use.The SPAS-12 is a practical and efficient weapon.Use by Italy,police and special forces in many countries. (extracts from The Vital Guide to Combat Guns & Infantry Weapons.)

Weight : 9Ibs
Str. Req. : 5
Damage : 23-36
Range : 20 (200 meters) Single/Burst
Magazine Cap. : 7
Burst : 3 rounds
Sprite : courtesy of Macbeth ,downloaded from JJ86 website.

[PaladinHeart]

Burst? I thought the SPAS-12 was single shot only?

My impression of the gun from RE2 was "A little slow, but very powerful and good range,"