JE Sawyer says stuff

Mr. Teatime · Post by **Mr. Teatime** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:08 pm

[ -> Editorial]

Over <a href="http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php ... &hl=">here on the Obsidian forums</a>, Josh Sawyer has decided to tell us fans how annoying we are. I'll make just a few points:<blockquote>Actually, I'm pretty sure that if Brotherhood of Steel had sold much better than it had, Interplay might have had enough money to continue paying the Black Isle employees who were working on Van Buren. While Van Buren certainly wouldn't have appeased all Fallout fans (because, in reality, I do not believe that any sequel to any game is really capable of appeasing all of the fans), it was a hell of a lot closer to F1 and F2 than BoS.</blockquote>BOS was a bad game. It didn't sell because not only did it rape the license; as a stand alone game, it sucked. If it had sold well, guess what would have been funded? That's right, FO:BOS 2. They had the design in place. <a href="http://www.interplay.com">Interplay</a> just didn't have enough life left in them to shit out the sequel. They were pulling people off Van Buren to work on FO:BOS 2. So sorry, Josh, but I disagree with you there.
 
 The rest of the post is generally correct, in my opinion, but - and this is important - incredibly unfair to us as a community.<blockquote>And hey, you can sit back and speculate on their motives all day long. They're greedy. They're jerks. They're idiots. They love games that are the antithesis of everything you love in the original games. They rape puppies. Go to town, man. Respond with hostility to developers who express a desire to do something with the game that you don't like. Insult their intelligence, make up clever nicknames for them, use Photoshop to put them into demeaning situations. Stew and chuckle and growl in righteous indignation. What did you accomplish? I mean, other than polishing your E-Sheriff badge and feeling like an internet hardass.
 
 I can tell you from my personal experience that I care about the logic of an argument, not about how loud one or two guys yell or how many different ways they can insult me in one paragraph. As a developer, almost all of the times I've changed my mind based on user feedback, it's been from relatively unassuming, conversational suggestions and observations. If a developer is open to your idea, he or she is going to be more likely to accept it if it's not presented with a punch in the face.</blockquote>No one likes being yelled at. But tell me, Mr Sawyer, where exactly is this 'self righteous shouting'? Sure, there's Visceris, who no one pays attention to, and doesn't post on these boards. And we all got a bit worked up about the whole first person hints, that have now been revealed to be concepts and ideas, rather than design decisions. From what I've seen, both <a href="http://www.bethsoft.com">Bethesda</a> and the community here have been getting on pretty well, with both the community and the developers being respectful of each other. And I am certain the <a href="http://www.bethsoft.com">Bethesda</a> developers know about our cries for things like TURN BASED COMBAT. I doubt that that decision will be made on the basis of few forum posts.

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:55 pm

Umm, Fallout fans killed Interplay? That is a bit of a stretch.

I agree about the heavy-handed insults from much of the community. I think it is uncalled for in that quantity and I'd like to see much less of it here.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:36 pm

What Sawyer doesn't seem to understand is that many of our complaints were valid. I agree that most FO fans use excessive vitriol to air their grievances, but most of those complaints were reasonable, especially where FOBOS was concerned.

And stop taking that tired "defensive developer" tack. Don't get all pissy at the fans just because we didn't like that our favorite series was taking a hideously wrong turn. It makes you look like an insecure buttmunch. Take a look at what you, or your company, did wrong, and fix it. FO fans complain so fervently because we loved how great the original games were.

Stevie D · Post by **Stevie D** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:42 pm

By and large, Fallout fans are a whinging bunch of bastards. It's practically institutionalised. Whether or not the disappointments we've had justify it or not, belly-aching and throwing names does not solve problems.

Take a look at what you [...] did wrong, and fix it.

Well quite.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:48 pm

I think its genius how its OUR fault for causing interplay to go down for not buying a shitty game. I mean really, even if we DID buy it because we love Fallout so much, what type of message would that send to interplay or any other developer for that matter, as I'm sure even if interplay did sell BOS well it'd still whore out its licenses. I see no reason why I should buy a bad product no matter what the license is.

Briosafreak · Post by **Briosafreak** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:53 pm

Jimmyjay86 wrote:Umm, Fallout fans killed Interplay? That is a bit of a stretch.

I agree about the heavy-handed insults from much of the community. I think it is uncalled for in that quantity and I'd like to see much less of it here.

There are interesting things in what he says, but most of it is too silly to be true. FOBOS could save Interplay? What? Could help fallout3? It removed people from Fallout3 development and the result was already beeing made, and it was FOBOS2, not Fallout3.

In what fairy land does Sawyer lives?

Briosafreak · Post by **Briosafreak** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:08 pm

Wolfman Walt wrote:I think its genius how its OUR fault for causing interplay to go down for not buying a shitty game. I mean really, even if we DID buy it because we love Fallout so much, what type of message would that send to interplay or any other developer for that matter, as I'm sure even if interplay did sell BOS well it'd still whore out its licenses. I see no reason why I should buy a bad product no matter what the license is.

What can i say more? It`s that simple, still there are so many in the industry like Sawyer that can`t grasp it.

Mr. Teatime · Post by **Mr. Teatime** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:12 pm

Maybe he's trying to get in Feagus' good books or something, so he can get a job at Obsidian.
Otherwise, I can't work it out. He's really being pretty unfair.
Out of all the companies/people associated with fallout at the moment (not including Troika), Bethsoft are actually being the most respectful.

Sovy Kurosei · Post by **Sovy Kurosei** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:19 pm

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=2678

Well, that article speaks volumes louder than what Josh commented about FO:BOS. Was FO:BOS even released when Black Isle Studios was shut down?

Briosafreak · Post by **Briosafreak** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:21 pm

Sovy Kurosei wrote:http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=2678

Well, that article speaks volumes louder than what Josh commented about FO:BOS. Was FO:BOS even released when Black Isle Studios was shut down?

No it wasn`t, that`s what make it even more ridiculous.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:38 am

Sawyer finally turns out to be an asshole.

Oops, sorry.

jetbaby · Post by **jetbaby** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:12 am

Mr. Teatime wrote:BOS was a bad game. It didn't sell because not only did it rape the license; as a stand alone game, it sucked. If it had sold well, guess what would have been funded? That's right, FO:BOS 2. They had the design in place. <a href="http://www.interplay.com">Interplay</a> just didn't have enough life left in them to shit out the sequel. They were pulling people off Van Buren to work on FO:BOS 2. So sorry, Josh, but I disagree with you there.

''

If I recall, the FOBOS that was released was only half of a game, the whole project was cut in half (remember Chuckie's firing?) and released as-is to bring in quick cash because it was behind schedule. That or I'm fucking insane, but yeah. The second half was supposed to be FOBOS2

Burnov · Post by **Burnov** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:09 am

It does make me wonder however. Despite the fact that J.E pissface is just a whiner because people didn't like his ideas and told him unequivocally so.

Do you think we could actually enjoy another Fallout if it was done like the last two? I mean what if the story was reasonable but it didn't have that same something that the first Fallout did?

I mean that could very well be something that is sort of unique to that one game because of the circumstances of it's release. It was a different sort of game at the time and did a lot for CRPGs as a genre in my opinion. Something like that now, as welcomed as it would be, might be nit-picked a bit more because we're dwelling in the past so much.

I think I could enjoy it regardless of whether it was perfect. Just as long as it was like the first two, gameplay wise.

I think we are somewhat responsible for our own shitty attitude towards how we would receive a new Fallout game (by that I mean in a "what-if" sense, meaning they made Fallout, and not Baldur's Fallout or Fallowind). We're embittered by the lack of support Interplay and Bethesda have given to the core fans in assuring it's going to be doing good things with the Fallout franchise. Because of this we tend to focus more on the original games and meet any idea of a new Fallout game with a lot of cynicism. Even FOT, while it wasn't perfect. Was a decent go-between if you were willing to accept a few oddities here and there.

However some flatly decried it up there with FO:BOS as a garbage licence.

T-900 · Post by **T-900** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:21 am

Conspiracy theory time, racing fans! Tune in today, in 3 seconds!

Bethesda are paying representatives of other prospective Fallout 3 developers and ex-fallout devs to dirty their own reputations to make bethesda look good and boost public confidence!

At great personal risk i have broken this news to you, i must now go into hiding on my caribbean island! Oh noes!1 Too lates! THEY ARE A-BUSTIN' DOWN THE DOOR! ARRRGHH! *rattle of machine gun fire and a theatrical scream, petering out into a gurgle and a thump*.

fallout ranger · Post by **fallout ranger** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:23 am

T-900 wrote:Bethesda are paying representatives of other prospective Fallout 3 developers and ex-fallout devs to dirty their own reputations to make bethesda look good and boost public confidence!

That'd take ALOT of dirtying of reputations.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:38 pm

fallout ranger wrote:
T-900 wrote:Bethesda are paying representatives of other prospective Fallout 3 developers and ex-fallout devs to dirty their own reputations to make bethesda look good and boost public confidence!
That'd take ALOT of dirtying of reputations.

And here I thought we were gettting along pretty well.

Mismatch · Post by **Mismatch** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:06 pm

Pete wrote:
fallout ranger wrote:
T-900 wrote:Bethesda are paying representatives of other prospective Fallout 3 developers and ex-fallout devs to dirty their own reputations to make bethesda look good and boost public confidence!
That'd take ALOT of dirtying of reputations.
And here I thought we were gettting along pretty well.

ah, but you shouldn't ever listen to anything fallout ranger says.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:18 pm

J.E. Sawyer wrote:What did you accomplish? I mean, other than polishing your E-Sheriff badge and feeling like an internet hardass.

What did we accomplish? Well, we tried to change the direction IPLY was heading, but failed. So I'd say we accomplished two things:

1.) We got the last laugh.

2.) It was a hell of a lot more satisfying than just sitting there quietly and accepting it.

Mismatch · Post by **Mismatch** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 am

I still don't get how interplay managed to go down the drain, it must have taken some serious planning.
the baldursgate games must have sold decently, since the deraged "I wanna be an elf" people loved those games, and NWN must too have sold decently...
And even FO: tactics must have sold ok... or am I all wrong?
Was it the cancellation of that torn game combined with the FO:POS that caused the crash???
There must have been summit else... like having strippers at the office or summit.
I for one am confused....
A whole company can't go down with one suckass game... or can it?

oh, and on a sidenote.. we arent' that bad, are we?
there must be someone besides from us that can vouch for us....

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:05 pm

NWN wasn't an Interplay game. One of Interplay's major fuck ups was to piss off BioWare and lose the D&D license, both of which went to Atari to make NWN. Tactics sold like shit. IWD2 sold like shit. They console games sold like shit. They cancelled their games that could have sold heaps (BG3 and VB) and released two crap games (BGDA2 and FOBOS) that sold like shit. Pretty much everything IPLY has released in the past while has sold like shit. I think their last big hit was probably the BG2 expansion.

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