S.P.E.C.I.A.L. - Is it balanced?

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:41 am

So which attributes do you guys think is the worst/best? Personally I think Intelligence and Agility are somewhat overpowered. And who the hell takes high luck?

ExtremeDrinker · Post by **ExtremeDrinker** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:03 pm

I think Charisma is over rated..I've always given low charisma, and played just fine.

Agility is the bombdiggety.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:26 pm

Charisma is under-powered, really. Either that or the companions suck.

Personally I think SPECIAL is one of the most balanced systems around. And the freedom of creating and modifying your character is also tremendous AND entertaining - something that doesn't seem to be possible in average (read D&D) rpgs these days.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:12 pm

Wow, an actual topic in the Fallout forum.

Intelligence is rather integral. I usually take a high Luck as well, just because it's fun, and I don't really care about powergaming. As for Agility, I could do without it.

What's your favorite ice cream flavour?

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:16 pm

Old-time Vanilla.

Intelligence rocks - on so many levels.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:58 pm

Yeh, Vanilla is good, maple syrup too, and pistachio also.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:14 pm

Good pistacio gelato is basically one very long orgasm.

SDMVersion3 · Post by **SDMVersion3** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:25 pm

I always play with 2 charisma. Realistic, and it's basically useless especially if you're combat heavy.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:07 am

I generally put charisma at about 3, after Gifted, and put luck at 2. Agility 10, intelligence close to 10, and endurance ~5, str ~5, perception ~6. Of course, this is for my generic powergaming build.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:13 am

I usually go around with the average joe, with an overall higher strenght/const. and wear a leather jacket.

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:55 am

I tend to favour high intelligence/luck/charisma/agility characters. 'Twas rather fun to play through with -

2 strength,
2 perception,
2 endurance,
8 charisma,
10 intelligence,
8 agility,
8 luck.

With gifted and small frame, obviously. Difficult at times, but amusing nonetheless. However, these are just that, preferences. I've played through both games with a multitude of assorted builds.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:44 pm

I personally can't be bothered to play an RPG with low intelligence anymore. In both FO and Torment, for example, I always boost up my character's wits before anything else, because the gaming experience is hell of a lot better this way.

Sovy Kurosei · Post by **Sovy Kurosei** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:06 pm

Charisma and luck are underpowered. Why can't we upgrade weaker stats instead of nerfing stronger stats for a change?

Methinks that would be awesome.

And who here has not taken gifted when playing through Fallout, for the most part?

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:14 pm

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:17 am

I've played through w/Gifted characters, but on the whole I don't take it. Those penalties hurt your non-tagged skills and you have to spend points to overcome that little hurdle. Extremely annoying when you've jammed the umpteenth lock or had to reload because you've blown your self up yet again trying to disarm a trap.

Gifted? No thanks, it's better to give than to receive. Or something...

That being written, I have to say that some of the stats are a bit under-powered. Personally all I need for a character are an AG of 6, most of my points get poured into PE and IN, which are probably the most powerful two stats.

One thing I would like to add, though, is that I don't play w/LU lower than 4, which is usually what I take. Even then it's really dicey when taking shots w/low chances to hit, e.g. I once had a character break his arm while tossing a flare at the wolves in the Modoc Pasture...

OTB

Sovy Kurosei · Post by **Sovy Kurosei** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:51 am

Eh, I don't worry about those skills. But then again, I have a bad habit of playing solo while powergamering for 'teh omg 1337357 character!!1!!'.

I usually pop luck down to 4, then boost agility and intelligence up. Never really cared too much for perception or strength, the former because I never noticed much change in my games, and the latter because of the power armor.

I think luck is underpowered because in the event of you screwing up, you could always reload your game. Unless luck is based off of a permanent seed (ala like Civilization III), then you could always reload until you get whatever it is done right. I don't know what one could do to fix this, exactly. Make it play a larger role in criticals, or remove it altogether?

Charisma is, bleagh, what could one do with it that speechcraft cannot do? I guess we could remove the bartering skill type and base the prices you can get off of charisma.

Speaking of skill types, what are some of the more useless ones you find? I am thinking of outdoormanship, for the same reasons I gave for luck. Bartering and gambling are another two I am thinking of.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:42 am

Sovy Kurosei wrote:I think luck is underpowered because in the event of you screwing up, you could always reload your game. Unless luck is based off of a permanent seed (ala like Civilization III), then you could always reload until you get whatever it is done right. I don't know what one could do to fix this, exactly. Make it play a larger role in criticals, or remove it altogether?

I've mixed feelings on Luck in general, largely because I don't believe in it, but I have to say that it can make for interesting characters.

You're right about saving/failing/reloading (SFL-ing) and its being the bane of game designers. The same can be done to overcome the low starting skill levels you get for Gifted, or any number of other handicaps. There are definintely things that I do in CRPGs that I would never do while sitting at a table gaming w/humans simply because in the latter case there's no reloading a saved game.

MechWarrior 2nd edition had an interesting concept for PCs: "Edge Points", which a player could use in order to call for a re-rolling of the dice, although the second roll was final and you had to live w/it. You started w/a given amount and earned more as you became more experienced. They regenerated from one gaming session to the next. Unfortunately that couldn't be implemented in a CRPG w/o the same pitfalls mentioned above.

I suppose "save points" like Resident Evil has with its typewriters could be used. While this wouldn't completely kill SFL-ing, it would make it more of a pain in the ass. I suppose that is really the same as "Tough Guy" mode in FoT, although in that case you weren't limited by the number of ribbons you found.

Dunno, I'm not a programmer or designer. I do recall Section 8 having some nifty ideas on how to deal w/it, but can't recall any specifics off-hand.

BTW, I don't see how you can't notice any difference between high- and low-PE characters, unless you run around clubbing everything to death and never using ranged weapons. There is a huge difference between having a 6 and an 8 PE, it's noticeable as hell when my snipers come down off Mentats and I go crawl off somewhere and sleep off the down time. For quest purposes a 6 PE is (IIRC) plenty.

OTB

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:17 pm

Gambling wasn't useless - gambling was OVERPOWERED. Your 3 level character could make endless amounts of money on the first craps table he came accross.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:00 pm

Quiet, don't tell that to the plebians.

Nicolai · Post by **Nicolai** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:22 pm

I never won anything at gambling